1. How long should a guy go out with a girl before asking her to marry him?

2. How long should an engagement last?

3. How much time should elapse between first date and wedding?

 Think of these questions as being about several parameters, like minimum recommended wise time, typical time, maximum recommended wise time barring special circumstance, etc.

 Just, uh, curious. 

I was reading Boundless and one of the authors recommended that one should plan for marriage within about a year, which really did seem quite reasonable as an upper bound to plan for, but I thought I would ask your opinions/experiences.

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grizzly   |2009-05-14 04:54:34 First off, it's good to hear from you giziti! Second, a disclaimer: these answers should be taken as my personal experience, and not construed as a recommendation. 1. 1 month and 9 days (or 40 days). If she cooks you dinner rather than going out to celebrate your birthday, and you are planning on proposing, but she burns the dinner, propose anyway! 2. 5 months and 3 days. 3. 6 months and 12 days, the sum of questions 1 and 2 above. Now on to the recommendation. ;) What I described above actually happened with me. Would I recommend it to anyone else? Not really. In our first month dating, I spent nearly as much time with her as I did working; our first date was 12 hours long. Also, we were both older than usual (I was 27; I don't tell her age), so we didn't have the young "awkward" bits to deal with. I would recommend that you take as long as you need to get to know her (and her faults) before proposing. Spend all day together, many times. We spent entire weekends together, from morning until late evening. Talk about your goals, plans, and desires. Listen to what she says. (This is always good advice :) Once you've proposed, and she has accepted, set a date in the near future; definitely within a year, sooner if possible. Talk to your priest about premarital counseling, and follow his recommendations. If he says that you should have 6 months of counseling, do it. If he says 3 months, do that. Plan to get married soon after the counseling is over. The main reason that I recommend a year or less is to prevent falling to the temptation of premarital sex. If the two of you have become emotionally intimate, as described in the last paragraphs, it is easy to become physically intimate as well. This is one of the reasons why we moved our wedding date forward by 7 weeks. I also recommend not living together before getting married, even if you don't plan on sleeping together. So, my recommendation is a (relatively) long time dating, and a short time engaged.

CoffeeZombie   |2009-05-14 09:24:49 I am largely in agreement with grizzly. A long dating time seems, to me, to be important. I had a teacher in high school who once said to us, "Guys, if you marry a girl before you've known her for at least 2 years, you deserve everything you get." Her reasoning was that it's easy to hide the uglier parts of oneself for a while, but it's really hard to hide everything for 2 years. Of course, this also assumes you spend a good amount of time together. But then, yes, short engagement. Outside of extenuating circumstances, there seems to be no reason to put off the wedding once it's been decided. As grizzly said, premarital counseling is a must (with our priest, it wasn't even a question; we did premarital counseling). It's not necessarily going to prevent you from running into problems, but I've found that it does help me to understand what the problems are when we hit them. Anyway, my parents were married within a year of meeting each other, still in college, etc., and things have turned out well for them. I've known others also who got married very quickly, and things seem to have gone well. Kristen and I, though, waited for 2 years of dating, and I think it was worth it.

giziti  - Well, this is purely theoretical, mind you.   |2009-05-14 11:22:45 I'm just curious what everybody else thinks. You've never known me to ask a question if I didn't already have a strong opinion, have you? I'm pretty much in agreement with your model, though everybody's situation will differ - it's hard for most people to know after a month and 9 days, after all.

grizzly   |2009-05-14 15:12:49 I should have added a note that "you" in my original posting was generic, not personal. Yes, it is hard for most people to know after 40 days. That's why I don't recommend it.

patronpeter  - not the matrix "one"   |2009-05-22 15:07:02 wow, you asked after only a month? were you head over heels or did you just know she was "the one"?

grizzly  - re: not the matrix "one"   |2009-05-22 15:44:35 patronpeter wrote: wow, you asked after only a month? were you head over heels or did you just know she was "the one"? Basically, after our first date, I knew, or at least, I hoped. I remember driving back from the Ren Faire (the second part of our first date) to dinner (the last part), praying: "God, if she's not the one for me, please tell me. Otherwise, I'm going for it." That was 9 years and 9 days ago, and she's still the one for me.

patronpeter   |2009-05-22 15:45:55 wow, that's so romantic!! james said the first time we met he felt like he got smacked in the face with a brick (he thought i'd be an ogre beforehand), was it like that when you met her too? aw...

Entity   |2009-05-22 15:49:01 Grizzly, if you got married on May 13, 2000, it was the same day we did. PatronPeter, I believe Grizzly wears that beard to cover up the scars from the brick-smacking.

grizzly   |2009-05-22 15:54:50 That was our first date. We married on November 25, 2000.

patronpeter   |2009-05-22 16:02:36 wow you even remember the day of the first date? wow...

grizzly   |2009-05-22 16:49:30 The anniversary was only 9 days ago, and is 1 week after we met, which was on her father's birthday.

patronpeter   |2009-05-22 16:03:26 ah.. it all makes sense now.

grizzly   |2009-05-22 21:16:56 Actually, I had the beard before we met (for a few years). The ponytail is another story. When we were nearing the wedding date, I mentioned that I needed to get a hair cut. "Or, I could grow a ponytail," I said, half-jokingly. I had actually been toying with the idea for years, but never did. To my surprise, she said that she liked ponytails, so I started growing mine out. By the wedding, there was a short 3 inch tail. Since then, I've cut it twice, and it is down my back. She loves playing with my hair. If you want to see a pic of me and my wife, go to http://adamsmanor.com/. You'll see the beard in its fullness and my beautiful wife.

patronpeter   |2009-05-26 08:35:32 aw, she's so petite! you two look happy, i didn't know you guys were publishers? that's pretty pimp.

grizzly  - re:   |2009-05-26 09:35:27 patronpeter wrote: i didn't know you guys were publishers? that's pretty pimp. It's mostly a self-publishing house, so we can publish her books. We're wrapping up the first one (final edits), and there are a few more in the pipeline. We will also publish my godfather's book and a few public domain books that aren't accessible in their complete form.

patronpeter   |2009-05-26 10:01:58 that's cool. what's it about? (the book, i mean)

grizzly   |2009-05-26 13:17:14 My wife's book is a Christian romance novel. I'm working on a medieval book of hours in English (a prayer book), and a "complete works" of Brother Lawrence (I haven't found a single volume that contains everything). My godfather is editing his second book, on intelligent design. (His first was on the history of the American Orthodox Church.) My wife's book will be under "Adams Manor Publishing", while the rest will be under "Saint Alexis Press" (another imprint that I have, for religious books). Perhaps we should come up with a separate imprint for her books, like Love Inspired or Heartsong (both already taken). Any suggestions?

Entity   |2009-05-14 12:35:37 Well, we dated 3 1/2 years before getting engaged. (1/2 year was thousands of miles apart though.) We were engaged for 10 months. Just celebrated 9 years married yesterday, so we are still relatively new at it. I would say definitely at least two years before getting engaged, longer if there are any issues to work through. Less than a year of engagement was good too. And premarital counseling is a must. I would recommend it before engagement as if a big issue arises, you haven't announced your intentions to everyone first. And if that doesn't work, find a good Shadchan.

giziti  - At least two years?   |2009-05-15 15:04:28 Wow. That's kind of long for a minimum recommendation.

Entity   |2009-05-15 23:36:31 It takes about that long to take off the rose-colored glasses and see each other for who they really are. That is the person you have to fall in love with. The persons at the beginning of the relationship don't stick around.

patronpeter   |2009-05-22 16:04:11 thank you!!

SasyMomaCat  - Well ...   |2009-05-14 23:12:26 My answer to all three is "It depends." But, generally speaking, I also agree with Grizzly. As for me and DaddyCat, we met in August, wrote letters and talked on the phone (long distance relationship) until our first date in November, kept writing letters and talking on the phone after that (dates were few, but tended to be day long affairs or weekend visits to our introduce one another/spend time with our parents). We got engaged in April and married the following August. We married in 1993 and are still going strong today. I think the fact that we had a long distance courtship was actually quite a blessing in that we really got to know each other pretty well through long, long letters and expensive long-distance phone calls. (of course, there were no cell phones nor was there e-mail. I wonder if young ladies get as much thrill going to their e-mail inbox as I used to when I would open my mail box and see a letter or card from my honey?) Anyway, that's our story.

giziti  - cool, thank you for your input   |2009-05-15 15:00:43 Well, and this has nothing to do with the journal because my questions are purely theoretical, I write letters, too, and they are quite exciting. They fit, however, without exception, on one piece of stationery. Perhaps I should try longer letters. But I write them during lunch and don't want to go through my stationery too quickly.

WebbedFeetOfClay   |2009-05-15 18:53:34 i sometimes wish I counted how many letters I half-finished to compare with how many I sent.

giziti   |2009-05-18 13:08:24 Don't be so emo.

WebbedFeetOfClay   |2009-05-18 15:50:22 more about AD(d) than emo. I'm incredibly distractable, especially when reading or writing about topics that I'm passionate about, usually devolves into pacing and talking to myself.

giziti   |2009-05-22 10:20:39 A good reason to limit yourself to one page. Less chance of distraction.

patronpeter   |2009-05-22 16:06:58 Quote: I'm incredibly distractable, especially when reading or writing about topics that I'm passionate about, usually devolves into pacing and talking to myself. it's ok, at least if your talking to yourself your less likely to get into an argument and leave you.

emperorbma   |2009-05-18 14:06:26 Well, in my case at least, zero is an easy number to count. That's probably why I'm still single, I guess...

SasyMomaCat   |2009-05-16 18:23:41 Most of our letters were on plain notebook paper or paper from a legal pad and, more often than not, would have seemed quite mundane to anyone not emotionally vested in the relationship. We would talk about all sorts of things. Of course, again, we lived a good way apart and telephone calls were expensive. But, these letters are some of my most cherished keepsakes. I've got every one of them he ever sent me. Then again, I have been described as a hopeless romantic :D

laika   |2009-05-20 15:40:27 just in time for the Giziti Marital Poll, my betrothed mentioned yesterday that the 25th anniversary of our first date (next April) would be a good time for a wedding. so, the ball is in my court now. guess i'll start looking for a ring and planning a proposal...

giziti   |2009-05-21 14:45:43 Well, the way I did it, it was mostly unplanned and I didn't have a ring on hand, but I had been so busy during normal business hours for several weeks that I had not had the chance to get one. Dancing around the subject, though, was just getting so awkward for both of us that I had to throw it out there. I guess you operate on a more sluggish time scale.

grizzly   |2009-05-21 15:38:39 So, you're engaged now?

giziti   |2009-05-22 10:19:00 Oh, yeah. I guess I don't keep you guys posted very well, since I don't exactly post here much. Yup. As noted, this journal is purely curiosity, as I've already cast the die, as it were.

giziti   |2009-05-22 10:27:23 But, enough of this. I've tried to keep my life out of my internet personality, for the most part, on these pages. It's not particularly relevant to theological discussion.

patronpeter   |2009-05-22 16:13:25 Quote: It's not particularly relevant to theological discussion. but it can be! if i end up marrying james (in the far far and distant future) we have to worry about the fact that he's an atheist and i'm confused (picking a denomination is alot like walking into reading terminal). do you and your special lady agree on most things theological? if not, are they things that can be looked past in order to spend a life together? not trying to get too personal, just throwing some questions into the wind...

giziti   |2009-05-22 16:20:11 Well, those things are very relevant in some contexts. I am quite willing to discuss them in theory or in relation to your particular situation, but I really don't think my personal situation is terribly relevant. If you've really got to know this stuff about me, recall what I said elsewhere: "It's kind of scary how much we agree about certain issues at times. Several times during our first couple dates, I felt like saying, "I agree totally and completely, and I'm not just saying that to impress you or get on your good side, I have a set of publicly-accessible documents detailing my views on the matter dating from 2004...". And I'm talking about the idiosyncratic stuff, like, the stuff that makes master giziti the lovable and unique curmudgeon you know he is."

patronpeter  - nobody likes the left field...   |2009-05-26 08:33:01 Quote: ]If you've really got to know this stuff about me, recall what I said elsewhere: [/quote] i like knowing more about you all, it makes it alot easier to understand when you go on tirades in other articles. understanding someone's personal perspective makes (at least in my opinion) it alot easier to be sympathetic towards your comments on tp. Quote: I have a set of publicly-accessible documents detailing my views on the matter dating from 2004...". lol, i did read that ;-)

Entity   |2009-05-22 10:58:17 Congrats! I assume you made sure she didn't differ from you on the important issues, like guitar-playing during Mass?

giziti   |2009-05-22 11:38:58 It's kind of scary how much we agree about certain issues at times. Several times during our first couple dates, I felt like saying, "I agree totally and completely, and I'm not just saying that to impress you or get on your good side, I have a set of publicly-accessible documents detailing my views on the matter dating from 2004...". And I'm talking about the idiosyncratic stuff, like, the stuff that makes master giziti the lovable and unique curmudgeon you know he is.

holmegm  - re:   |2009-05-23 10:40:04 giziti wrote: It's kind of scary how much we agree about certain issues at times. Several times during our first couple dates, I felt like saying, "I agree totally and completely, and I'm not just saying that to impress you or get on your good side, I have a set of publicly-accessible documents detailing my views on the matter dating from 2004...". And I'm talking about the idiosyncratic stuff, like, the stuff that makes master giziti the lovable and unique curmudgeon you know he is. Not to scare you, but this can be something called mirroring. Does she have a publicly accessible archive of her views? ;) Mirroring can be done intentionally, or unconsciously as part of a personality disorder ... There, now that the parade is wet ... I wish you all the best! Truly :)

giziti   |2009-05-23 11:58:50 Well, the scenario implied by the comment indicates that I would be the one mirroring and therefore I was pointing out my views are well-documented to let her know I'm not pathological. The really amusing one was when she brought up her hatred of diamonds in the place of modern marital "tradition" (while we were waiting in line for beer at Dark Lord Day). It was almost word-for-word what I would have said (and have said before elsewhere on the internets). Oh my. Oh no. Did she... stalk me on the internets? Read all my stuff? Construct a personality in an elaborate ruse to take my family fortune? I thought that's what *I* was doing! Could it be that neither of us has a family fortune to defraud the other of?! Well, at least we'll always have Dark Lord Day.

patronpeter   |2009-05-26 08:29:35 let's not knock mirroring completely here... it's a good way to make conversation. if you can be sympathetic to your opponents gestures and ideals, it's alot easier to keep the conversation going and get more info out of them... or maybe i have a personality disorder. ;-)

metallurge  - re: re:   |2009-05-26 09:05:37 holmegm wrote: Mirroring can be done intentionally, or unconsciously as part of a personality disorder ... Yes, yes it can...

metallurge   |2009-05-26 09:11:17 Congratulations, master giziti!

patronpeter  - :-)   |2009-05-22 15:40:31 1. A long time. You don’t really know somebody until you’ve experienced a lot with them. For example, it’s easy for a girl to say she’s not the jealous type, but if you find yourself having to explain yourself every time you go somewhere without her, she’s probably got some issues. Sure, it doesn’t seem like a big deal, but do you want to chance spending the rest of your life (or worse, months in divorce court) with someone who doesn’t trust you enough to go out with friends once in a while? 2. Less than a year. Any longer than that you’re just procrastinating. I mean seriously, if you’re going to ask, you want to be married to the girl, right? So just do it! If it’s a money problem, just elope and do the fancy thing later. If your traditional, wait to propose til ‘you can “do it right”. For example, my cousin and her boyfriend only dated for three years before getting engaged and are waiting two years before they get married to make sure they can have an elaborate wedding. Am I the only one that thinks that’s weird? Date three years = two years of engagement? 3. You shouldn’t marry somebody unless you plan on spending the rest of your life stuck with them and any offspring/loans/weight gain that occur thereafter. So… a lot of time should lapse between first date and ball and chain. I may be a liberal, but marriage is no joke, if your going to do it, make sure it’s for the long run, and not some spur of the moment, just met the girl 6 months ago and don’t even know how she feels about important issues (yeah, it matters) like adoption, abortion, religion… any who, divorce is expensive, but wedding’s can be just as expensive, so put lots of thought into it before you make the big jump into the land of no return. That’s a funny thing to be curious about by the way… how do you personally feel about it? Is that tingly feeling after just a few month love or lust/comfort/desire to settle?

giziti   |2009-05-22 15:51:16 The answer is that I don't have feelings. Really. Especially not on public internet fora. I suppose I should, however, answer my own survey. Well, I had seen a few people get married relatively quickly in the past couple years - secular people, by the way - and wondered what, generally, people think. I've always thought ill of the dating paradigms present in the world, which is why I don't really participate, but I was curious about what other people think.

giziti   |2009-05-22 16:09:20 I suppose I should give my own answers to this question. Keep in mind that I am by no means qualified to have any sort of opinion about anything. The first and foremost point is that, when a man is seeing a woman, he must do so with marriage on the mind. The telos of dating is marriage. The second point is that the man should not be intimate beyond the level of his commitment. That is to say, he mustn't dally with a woman's affections. Accordingly, that is what confuses me about dating for a terribly long time. If one is doing so with the end goal of marriage, one really should not take 2 years to gather all the information needed to decide whether or not one wants to marry the woman. If you break it off after two years, you are in the unwise situation of having gone through a quasi-divorce because of the emotional intimacy established in those two years. Grizzly's 40 days might be a bit brisk for most, but if you're intentional about it, you should be able to test each other's mettle in less than a year. Marriage is far more about commitment than anything else, and most of these issues can be worked through in the context of marriage if addressed early. Everybody, in the end, marries a stranger. So I would say: 1. Most men should figure this out in less than a year, maybe 1.5. Most should wait 6 months. I'm more lenient on the short side than the long side. Engagements can be broken, after all, but hearts shouldn't be by excessive dallying. 2. It's hard to think anything more than a year would be advisable. 6 months seems a reasonable lower bound unless they were receiving premarital counseling before engagement. 3. A year is a very reasonable target. Two years is a reasonable upper bound.

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