theophiles.org - Interfaith Consensus: Women need not apply

Interfaith Consensus: Women need not apply

Written by Ella Vadame

Thursday, 24 November 2011 23:27

Opinion at CNN:

If there is one institution that has made a point of desperately trying to keep women in their place, it's organized religion.
Whether it's Christianity, Islam or Judaism, women are often relegated to secondary roles, their contributions seen as insignificant.
In the Catholic Church, that is taken a step further by refusing to even allow women to become priests. Now, some Catholic churches are alienating women by refusing to allow girls to serve as altar servants.

Comments

emperorbma - article ignores the concept of ordination

|2011-11-28 13:48:27

Not sure what the issue with altar girls is. Acolyte is not an ordained office so it shouldn't be an issue to have women serving in that role.

However, the office of the pastor (cf. Catholic presbyter or bishop) is specifically ordained by Divine instructions which specify who may or may not be ordained according to them. For all intents and purposes there is no technical reason a woman couldn't fulfill the intellectual or moral requirements of the office, but there is no way for a woman to act in the capacity of a pastor without ignoring the integrity of the Divine orders that establish the pastoral office of Word and Sacrament. Basically, it is really a question of whether we want to compromise the meaning of God's Word simply to accommodate a modern sensibility. There is nothing about "keeping anyone in one's place" about it. (Except, of course, when dealing with parodies, mockers and idiots...)

Furthermore, the pastoral office is not the only office of leadership in the Church and nothing prevents a woman from writing about her views of Church and faith and sharing them with her fellow Christians or even convincing other Christians to agree with her views. (Note, also, that there is a provision for non-ordained deaconesses due to the inclusion of the wives of deaconesses in the Scripture, and some [lowercase] orthodox Christian sects do maintain such an office) The critical distinguishing mark of the Pastoral office which serves as a distinction here is the administration of Word and Sacrament faithfully according to God's promise of grace. In order to do this, those who inhabit that office must remain faithful to that Word by retaining the Divinely established orders that characterize it. For the same reason, one should also reject a drunkard or a brawler as a pastor. As for the lay ministry, this is something which is common to all Christians as priests of God regardless of sex...

laika - re: article ignores the concept of ordination

|2011-11-28 20:23:44

emperorbma wrote:

Note, also, that there is a provision for non-ordained deaconesses due to the inclusion of the wives of deaconesses...

Wives of deaconesses? Now, which church was it that Timothy was addressing?

But seriously, I wonder if a situation has ever arisen in which the women of the church were so influential that the role of the pastor was effectively in the backseat, even while maintaining the strict technical separation of offices?

And yes, as you say the "article ignores the concept of ordination," but it does a good job of highlighting the centrality of women to the spread of the Good News. One might even argue based on attendance and participation that women are once more standing by Jesus when men are abandoning Him.

emperorbma

|2011-11-28 22:35:04

Well, I'm fairly sure the Scriptural author was addressing both. The ancient, of course, was receiving it directly for their situation. However, the revelation still serves as the model for the Church today.

We certainly know the examples of Mary, the mother of our Lord, and the female disciples who had the honor of first preaching the Risen Lord. It is a good question whether or not there have been others who have been an inspired authority unto themselves apart from ordination. I cannot help but conclude that there have been even if I am rather unfortunately at a loss to produce any specific individual examples. I can always point to the efforts of historical deaconesses and nuns or the women's lay missionary league of my own church denomination, but it doesn't do any proper credit. Perhaps there is an opportunity for us all to consider the lay ministry of women throughout the Church and its often underrepresented impact.

holmegm - re: article ignores the concept of ordination

|2011-12-09 09:37:00

article wrote:

If there is one institution that has made a point of desperately trying to keep women in their place, it's organized religion.

Hmm - don't even disorganized religions, like cults, typically have men at the top?

emperorbma wrote:

However, the office of the pastor (cf. Catholic presbyter or bishop) is specifically ordained by Divine instructions which specify who may or may not be ordained according to them. For all intents and purposes there is no technical reason a woman couldn't fulfill the intellectual or moral requirements of the office, but there is no way for a woman to act in the capacity of a pastor without ignoring the integrity of the Divine orders that establish the pastoral office of Word and Sacrament. Basically, it is really a question of whether we want to compromise the meaning of God's Word simply to accommodate a modern sensibility.

Yep. it's all about "I want it, so it must be right." And it is a slippery slope, because if that's your principle, why wouldn't you keep applying it to other issues?

Was it Chesterton who said that American churches might as well have women in their pulpits, as they basically already did even in his time (with such womanish men)?

laika - re: article ignores the concept of ordination

|2011-12-09 14:10:56

holmegm wrote:

Hmm - don't even disorganized religions, like cults, typically have men at the top?

An even greater consensus than the one mentioned in the article? Interesting point. One wonders if all/most gods prefer male priests? There's a question for any anthropologists among us.

laika

|2011-12-08 23:46:18

emperorbma wrote:

Perhaps there is an opportunity for us all to consider the lay ministry of women throughout the Church and its often underrepresented impact.

Maybe we should agitate for an interdenominational recognition of women in church history and eliminate problems like the one below?

emperorbma wrote:

It is a good question whether or not there have been others who have been an inspired authority unto themselves apart from ordination. I cannot help but conclude that there have been even if I am rather unfortunately at a loss to produce any specific individual examples.

emperorbma

|2011-12-09 00:31:07

Well, the issue with that would be that not all denominations share criteria for what is considered best practice. Sure, we can all point to common examples of good works in all Christians but if they are at odds with our doctrinal stance we would lack the degree of embrace I think would be necessary for it to be a salient thing. I suppose in an interdenominational capacity it is possible to consider all sects better examples, though.

It's sort of like each denomination needs its own women to be on that board. As to that prospect, however, I'm certain that resistance will differ even within churches of the same group. It's also not like this is an entirely new problem. Various Christian sects have, at least, partially provided some steps in this direction. Catholics, for example, have nuns. Likewise, many Protestant sects (including my own) either have womens' organizations or deaconess programs of some sort. Finally, there is always the Calendar of Saints (believe it or not, we Lutherans also have such a thing although it depends which Lutheran sect you are looking at who is on it and when) by which each denomination gets to select those whom they feel best represent the Christian faith and this roster is not entirely devoid of women.

It's just the kind of thing, I think, that we as Christians need to be aware of and looking out for...

laika - re: The calendar

|2011-12-09 14:30:41

emperorbma wrote:

Finally, there is always the Calendar of Saints (believe it or not, we Lutherans also have such a thing although it depends which Lutheran sect you are looking at who is on it and when) by which each denomination gets to select those whom they feel best represent the Christian faith and this roster is not entirely devoid of women.

Excellent point! A stupid omission on my part. I do think of Julian of Norwich sometimes, or Brigid with her migraine visions, or the amazing Perpetua, etc. My RC friends appealed to St Lucie on my behalf during my brief blindness and longer bout with vision problems. (Someone's prayers won out, thank merciful God, though prot, Romish, or combined I couldn't say.)

emperorbma wrote:

It's just the kind of thing, I think, that we as Christians need to be aware of and looking out for...

I was thinking in terms of a Year of the Woman in Church kind of thing, a specific interdenominational recognition emphasis. Just a thought...

emperorbma

|2011-12-09 22:55:18

Not sure how such a thing could be organized since getting different churches to agree on something like... anything... is like herding programmers... er... I mean cats.

laika - re:

|2011-12-09 23:23:51

emperorbma wrote:

... is like herding programmers... er... I mean cats.

Spoken like one who knows the ways of both.

emperorbma

|2011-12-10 00:07:58

Meow... err I mean while(1) {fork();}

Disclaimer: don't actually stick that into a function and run that code. Doing so may be hazardous to your task count. :P

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Our valuable member laika has been with us since Thursday, 03 April 2008.

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